2020 Panel: The Politics of Reading

Marines Alvarez 0:13
Hello and welcome to BookNet Cast, and for all intents and purposes, BookNet Fest 2020. My name is Marines.

Samantha Lane 0:20
And I’m Samantha Lane and we are the co-organizers of BookNet Fest, an event that invites readers who typically gather online to Orlando, Florida every year. Due to the global pandemic, we are obviously not having an event in person in 2020, so we have moved all of our panels and content fully online for this year. But we are hoping for everyone to join us again in 2021 on September 3rd and 4th.

Thank you to our sponsor of this panel, Little Bee Books. Little Bee Books is a children’s book publisher dedicated to making high quality, creative, and fun books for busy little bees ages 0 through 12. Offering an inspired selection of early learning concept books, board games, novelty books, activity books, picture books, chapter books, nonfiction, giftsets, and more. On August 25, 2020, Little Bee released the Riverdale Diaries, volume One: Hello Betty! Kirkus Reviews said this graphic novel series breathes new life into old characters. Betty Cooper and her buddies from Archie’s Riverdale series are reimagined for middle grade readers in this full length, full color graphic novel written by rising star, Sarah Kuhn, and drawn by critically acclaimed artist, J. Bone. You can check out the Riverdale Diaries at your local library or wherever books are sold.

Marines Alvarez 1:24
We’ve got a bunch of online events happening over the course of the next month. So we encourage everybody to check out the full calendar at booknetfest.com and of course subscribe to BookNet Cast, as this is where we are bringing you what would have been some of our panels for this year, our in person panels, and to that end, we’ve got some guests here with us today.

Nicole Sweeney 1:43
Hi, I am Nicole Sweeney. I co-run the website snarksquad.com with Mari and we have a couple podcasts: Snark Squad Pod and Cooler Than Homework that you can check out probably wherever you’re listening to this.

Deboki 1:57
I am Deboki and I am on YouTube at okidokiboki where I talk about books and sometimes science and some other stuff too.

Jocelyn 2:05
I’m Jocelyn. On Youtube, I am yogi with a book. I also run a couple of different Latinx book things, including the Latinx Book Club on Twitter, and the Latinx-a-thon, which is a 10 day long readathon during Latinx Heritage Month.

Marines Alvarez 2:21
We’re so happy to have them here today to talk to us about the politics of reading. Now, this is a panel that we came up with last October, right, right after BookNet Fest 2019. It’s been on our schedule since then. But it’s obviously a topic that people I think, are talking about more now just because of the Black Lives Matter movement and things of that nature. So this is definitely something that I feel like the community is talking about more. So a good place to start, I think, and a question for you all is: how or why is reading political?

Deboki 2:45
I mean, the really, really – it feels almost like, flippant to say it is like, kind of like the cliched everything is political. Like the personal is political. And I think at this point like that is a thing we say in response to a lot of choices, so it’s hard to parse out what that can actually mean. So I’m, I don’t know how to, like, say that in a more useful way. Except that I think that is sort of the overarching kind of principle to me, that has shaped my understanding of reading being political.

Jocelyn 3:26
Yeah, for me, I mean, to borrow from another cliche, like, we don’t exist in a vacuum, right? So like, my reading is political, because lives are political. You know, it’s just like the way the world works.

Samantha Lane 3:39
And I think there’s something to be said, for, you know, we are talking on a panel at an event about the online book community where most people have platforms that are coming to this event or that are on panels at this event. And having a platform means that there is some level of influence over you know, you reading and who you’re choosing to read. More so than maybe just somebody who’s reading by themselves and never talking about it. So there is a lot more sort of at stake with our community, and having that platform and having that influence, than there might be for your average person.

Nicole Sweeney 4:10
I think in general, that people who engage as heavily with books as the like online book community does like to acknowledge the empathy building power of like, of books and of reading. It is like, fascinating to me how that gets, like, separated out from this question of reading being political, you know. I guess I may be getting a little bit ahead of myself. But I think like, for me, coming into this space, like having been in more explicitly political spaces before – coming into the, like, online book community, I was surprised to find how many people did not really consider reading political. And I think this goes back to Deboki’s initial answer to this question, which is that like, everything is political and so like, of course. Of course reading is too, because it’s a, it’s like – it is a form of mass media and it is a form of mass communication. It’s a way that like, people are connecting to each other and connecting to information. So like, yes. Yes, of course it is also inherently political.

Marines Alvarez 5:13
The thing that got me like really thinking about this, like my entry point – apart from everything is political – but the thing that I think really solidifies me is that point of this being mass media. And that, that’s my background, and my education is in like media. So that has always been my entry point to be like, well, of course it is. If we can agree, you know, that, like TV, movies, and things of that nature are also, reading naturally is political as well. But more than that, I think a lot about how the reading community, and especially those of us who create and have platforms, are like a cog in the machine of publishing as a whole. And I feel like more people are willing to admit that publishing is political, and that there is a sense of like, gatekeeping and different like parts of that, that are more easily identifiable as political. But we are a part of that. Like we’re a part of that machine. So our decisions and our reading and everything that we do with or without a platform also feels political to me.

Deboki 6:15
Your use of the word entry point was really interesting to me because another thing that I was like just thinking about too is that for my own politics, books and pop culture has been the entry point into what I understand politically. Like, so growing up reading, like blogs about pop culture was like what made me realize things about like, misogyny and racism. Like other people processing those things out loud, was like, kind of what like – if we’re going off the Twitter meme of like what radicalized, like what radicalized me – it’s like, oh, like people processing tabloid culture in the 2000s. Like stuff like that, that people will argue are not political, but like, clearly are. And that was my entry point into understanding so much of the world and understanding so much about social justice issues and a lot of different politicized issues.

Jocelyn 7:03
Yeah, with the entry point thing that made me think of language as a cultural vehicle, which is something that I think about a lot, too. I studied international education and like international studies. And just the idea of the way things can and can’t translate, the way that certain beliefs get put into language, and the way that that affects everything that you read, and that you say, it’s a very interesting concept that I come back to a lot – and how I think differently than I would have if I spoke a different language, if I was brought up in a different place. And language, obviously is such a big part of reading.

Marines Alvarez 7:39
To this end and kind of talking about media and your politics. How do you guys feel that reading reflects your politics or that reading has changed your politics? And obviously you don’t have to get into the nitty gritty. I’m not checking voting records or anything like that. But in just more like, broad and general senses. How do you think that reading kind of ties into what your political beliefs are right now?

Deboki 8:05
I would really love for someone to connect like Twilight to their tax policy stances.

Marines Alvarez 8:13
The real panel we should’ve had.

Nicole Sweeney 8:15
The only Twilight discourse that I’m ready for.

Jocelyn 8:20
So a big thing that comes to mind for me for this is the way people always talk about voting with your dollars. The books that I am particularly spending money on are very specific ones. And I don’t have an infinite amount of money to spend on books, nor do I have the space to spend on every single book I want to read. So making a decision to buy a book is usually like, “Do I want to support this author monetarily? What am I saying by buying this book?” That sort of thing.

Marines Alvarez 8:47
I think for me once I joined BookTube, it made me take like a really long, hard look at the types of things that I was reading that I necessarily wasn’t, you know, paying as much attention to as before. And it made me realize that I really did want to diversify my reading, and that I wanted to give time, energy and money to stories that, that aren’t always necessarily given the attention or time that they deserve. You know, being published is already one hurdle that it crossed. And then so, you know, it was my decision to basically make sure that – that my reading, that my shelves, that the things that I were supporting, were reflective of a wide variety of voices and stories. And I think that we’re seeing or hearing a lot more of that conversation now, as people are talking about, you know, reading from Black authors and things of that nature. But I think that it really does tie in and this is, this is the way that I or, or one of the ties that I see to my politics is, you know, the art that I support is in general, I think it is reflective of the things that I believe.

Deboki 9:51
Yeah, and I think I see it as also an always evolving thing. Because I think one of the cool things about reading is like, you read one thing, you learn something, and it kind of sets you off on to the next thing that you’re going to like, want to read whether – and I’m saying “learn” like, I don’t mean like everything is a lesson. I mean like you’re, you’re exposing yourself to like a new set of ideas, a new world, anything like that. And that will lead you potentially to something similar, something different, but everything is always a springboard for the next thing. And I think that, I think that connects to politics, or just like the idea of empathy where your empathy should hopefully always be growing, or like you’re finding new places where you, you maybe don’t know as much about, or you’re not like, giving attention to. Like, I think that’s like an always in progress sort of project.

Nicole Sweeney 10:35
Yeah, I think that is also part of what makes this question kind of tricky to answer because I feel like for me, it is one of those things where the transformation that it has made has been like really slow but constant. And, and it is through like, all of the things that you guys are already saying, like I am thinking about these decisions about where my dollars are going. I am increasingly more mindful of like the ways in which I am diversifying my reading. And like that is the thing that is also just sort of like constant and ongoing. Like how I would have defined that a decade ago versus how I would define that now is really different, I think. To Deboki’s point about all of the different perspectives that like we’re constantly taking in, I think that like each of those perspectives, even in the ways that like, not everything is there to teach us something – like the goals of each book are going to be a little bit different. But like, if you are really taking in and sitting with and internalizing all of these different perspectives, like that is going to keep sort of gradually moving you towards a greater degree of empathy that like to me, feels so intrinsically tied up in the way that I think about my politics.

Marines Alvarez 11:49
I think that this idea of it being like a, an aggregate thing is really important too, because we’re talking about reading as this like giant, singular experience almost. But you know. And then you start thinking about like, on a smaller scale like your one-off experiences of reading. Like I just had this idea of like, you know, I say “eat the rich” and “billionaire shouldn’t exist.” But if I read a romance about a playboy billionaire, like, how is that reflective of my politics?

Nicole Sweeney 12:17
Right, right.

Marines Alvarez 12:18
So once you get to like the smaller scale, I feel like it feels like it can be more tricky when, when what we’re talking about really does feel more like an aggregate thing of like the sum total of my reading, the sum total of where I put my dollars, the sum total, you know, of these sorts of things, and how that changes you slowly.

Samantha Lane 12:35
It’s also about the discussion too for me, I’ve noticed as you guys were all talking about your reading experience. Because very recently, I got a new job in mental health and there’s been a lot of diversity training at the job, which has been fantastic. But it’s also made me realize that I know a lot more about these experiences and things and I’m just more open to a lot of other people’s experiences than the average person just from being exposed to the online book community and the review community where there’s so many different people talking about so many different books and their experiences. And even if I didn’t read a thing, if people are engaging and talking about that thing, I have some knowledge of it that I wouldn’t if I wasn’t involved in the community. And so I get some of that knowledge even from not even having read the book. So it’s not even necessarily even just about the politics of our individual reading, but also the politics of how we engage with reading as a thing and with other readers.

Deboki 13:25
I think about this a lot because I am a reality TV fan, which like involves engaging with not billionaires, but people who are problematic in a way that feels billionaire adjacent. And the thing that I’ve like come to like, even with like the billionaire romance, it’s like, there are different parts of your brain that I think are going to engage with the book in different ways. But like what matters to me long term is like, how I place it in context in, in terms of how I talk about it. So like, if I’m going to like read a billionaire romance and be like, “Yeah, I think it’s like great. Like I think all, I think all heroes should be billionaires because money is what will be, I don’t know, the most romantic thing” like. I don’t know, I’m not really expressing that in a very elegant way. But I feel like yeah, like it to me, it’s always about not just like the work but how you engage with it. And that doesn’t mean you always have to take everything like very seriously, but I do think it means at least being open to the idea that it’s maybe reflecting a thing in your politics that you don’t want for the real world but that you’re okay with in a fictional one.

Nicole Sweeney 14:28
I will also say too, that I agree with everything that both of you have just said. But I – the other thing that this is making me think about is the ways in which being reminded that there are limits to the ways in which reading can be integrated with my politics. Like it’s really like great and well and good to be making all of these kinds of thoughtful decisions about what we’re reading and where we’re, you know, putting our dollars. And, and, and. But like at the end of the day, there is still also like, I don’t know, a separate set of action components that need to go with this that like simply reading a book is not going to achieve.

Marines Alvarez 15:05
Kind of going back to what Deboki was saying about like reality TV and things of that nature. How do you guys make choices like personally about balancing, you know, consuming media for entertainment with making more responsible choices? Where, where there is that sort of choice, where that choice exists.

Jocelyn 15:24
This is something that I’ve only recently been starting to think about. And partly, I think that goes back to the fact that I’ve just always been a reader ever since I was very young. And so reading was just a very natural sort of escapist tendency for me and had just always been like such a very big part of my life. That it wasn’t until Justin, Ghost Reader, pointed out during, I think the very beginning of June when people were having some really amazing conversations, book bloggers, reviewers, booktubers, everyone. And he was talking about engaging with nonfiction work and how important that is. And his point was just like, if you only read about Black lives in a fictional manner, then the death of Black lives will still feel fictional to you. And just the idea of like, oh, engaging with nonfiction and actually learning about real people is a way to tap into a different part of my empathy and a different part of my brain and to actually think about real world consequences. Because I know I also have a tendency to like, I really, really love fantasy. I’ll dabble in sci fi. And I like when they deal with darker themes. Because of that extra bit of removing from reality. Dark contemporaries are ones that I usually have a very hard time for. And so like his specific mention, just really made me sit back for a moment. I was like, “Oh, when am I reading nonfiction? When am I choosing to pass on stories that are too hard for me? And when is this me taking the easy way out?” So short answer is I’m still figuring that out. And that’s definitely, definitely a privileged thing to say too, but I’m really thankful that he pointed that out and that I am able to now be like, “Okay, what am I doing? When am I reading nonfiction? And how am I applying this to real world?” Because yeah, I think there is a very easy way to just be like, “I read because I like to and because it’s fun.” But sometimes reading should be more than that, right?

Nicole Sweeney 17:23
Especially if you’re making it a significant part of like your life and identity too. Like this is the thing, a thing that I come back to with these kinds of conversations in a larger, broader space. I understand that if you are somebody who only reads like five books a year saying, like “I only read for fun,” is like like that is radically different from somebody who is actively and like, in a sense performatively – I don’t say this to say that you’re not like really engaging or really doing it. But like if you are on Goodreads, if you are on Twitter, if you are on Youtube, talking about all the fucking books that you read, and you are reading like 100 books a year in that performative way, I’m sorry, “I just read books for fun” hits very, very differently.

Jocelyn 18:04
Yep.

Nicole Sweeney 18:04
It’s like part of your identity at that point, like, so, like, unpack that a little bit.

Deboki 18:11
This is the first time I’ve like, processed the difference in that sense of like the responsibility of reading as an identity as part of a community versus something when you’re just like on your own. Because I think like a lot of people, I just came to BookTube and was like, “Cool, there’s people who talk about books like, this seems fun.” And then like, several years in and like now I’m thinking more about like, “What books am I talking about? How am I talking about them? Like, what does it mean for me to be putting my opinions out in a certain way?” And sometimes those are like, just very self conscious thoughts. But I’ve been trying to think more like, constructively even like about just like, what it is I want my reviews to do. And that’s beyond the scope of just politics. But I think politics is an important part of that.

Marines Alvarez 18:51
And the question is like, you know, how we make these choices when we’re consuming for entertainment, and that is definitely different than a question of how we do take it a step further. Because consuming for entertainment is me, in my house, with my book.

Nicole Sweeney 19:07
Right!

Marines Alvarez 19:07
And the second that I then take that anywhere else, that is – that, that is no longer just me. I’m involving other people. And that introduces a second, like set of questions about what is responsible there. And I have a blog and a podcast, but primarily talk about books on BookTube so that’s my experience, or more of my experience. And I feel like a lot of us do enter that space and it’s just like, “Oh, people here are you know, fun.” And you know, we start off and nobody’s watching us and that’s fine. We’re just making it for fun. But as more and more people do begin to watch our channel, consume our content, turn to us for opinions and reviews. Again, it’s like every, every like level you go or whatnot, like it introduces more and more questions about the sort of responsibility tied to the things you’re making and the things you’re consuming.

Nicole Sweeney 19:55
Yeah, to answer, to actually answer the question that you posed. I got it. I tracked. But I – yes. Like that, to me is a really really important place of distinction about like, the ways in which I am talking about things versus privately consuming a thing. I think, I don’t know, like I for like personal reasons just will not read a book that I’m not also going to log on Goodreads. And this has less to do with the idea of like sharing with people that I’m doing this thing and more with just like my own sense of completion. Like it will just like back at me and bother me that I haven’t added this to the data that I’m generating about myself. That’s like, that’s a whole other thing to unpack another time. But I think about this more with like movies and TV shows, I guess this sort of distinction about like, am I talking about it versus am I doing like you know, kind of keeping, keeping this to myself I guess? But like that is definitely a place where I am drawing, like where I am like making a distinction between am I consuming this thing in a public fashion, or am I consuming this thing in a private fashion? And like it is a question of like, the second that I make the decision to do the public thing, like I’m saying things, right? Like, even if I’m saying it to an audience of, of three people, they’re, they’re still – I don’t know, like, it still becomes a statement. And it is worth at least thinking a little bit about what I am putting out into the world.

Jocelyn 21:28
I’ve noticed I start thinking differently when I read if I know I’m going to be reviewing something. That like partway through a book, I’ll be like, “Ooh, how does this feel as a rating?” Whereas if it’s something that I am reading, like purely for entertainment, it’ll be like, done in a day, read through really fast, don’t really like – just like, let it wash over me, right? But I’ve noticed like the longer I review books, the more I’m just like, “Hmm, how do I want to talk about this? How do I want to talk about the way it’s written? And how do I you know, vocalize all of these feelings and processes as I’m going through them so that an audience can understand it?”

Marines Alvarez 22:04
Part of me – like we’re having this conversation and I’m like thinking about how, I don’t know, I guess serious it sounds and I like I – I don’t want it to almost come across or sound like you know that it, it takes the fun out of reading, you know what I mean? Because obviously, we all love reading and we all make content around reading and this is something that we enjoy. But I feel like it goes back to that idea of this being like something that happens a long time and make, you make changes slowly. So I feel like that the more I read, the more things that I make, the more I am aware of how these decisions come into play, and the things that what my content can say, and the sort of responsibility that I personally feel for what my content is saying, and those things. And that’s definitely something that has, you know, changed for me from when I started to now and I assume will continue to change over time as more people find my, my content or whatnot. And, and it is not something that like, fundamentally changes how I feel about reading though. Like I still really love reading and this is – these are all things that are, you know, important to me in different ways. As important as it is to me to read and to get entertainment from that and the serotonin, and you know sometimes prioritizing my last two brain cells, like those things are truly, truly important to me. But so is refining my personal politics and, you know, the responsibility I feel to an audience.

Samantha Lane 23:30
As we’re all talking, I’m kind of sitting here listening and thinking about what – kind of what you’re saying about this, you know, slowly kind of changing the way that we read, and things having an impact and what Nicole was saying about things slowly becoming your identity. Really, this isn’t just a reading thing. I mean, this is any hobby that someone has. You know, I’m sitting here kind of thinking of every other part of YouTube, you know, the hobby spaces, the beauty gurus, the gamers, and there’s this same sort of argument that comes out of people, once they get large enough that they start to kind of get critiqued a bit, and they’re like, “Well, I’m just doing this for fun.” And it’s like, well, at a certain point, like we’ve been saying this whole time, like there is – you are saying something about what you’re doing. And that’s true even on like an individual level with somebody that doesn’t have a platform. The hobbies you choose to engage in are saying something, you know. They’re saying something about your personality. They’re saying something about what you value. They’re saying something about the communities that you choose to value. Like, even if you’re not actively thinking about it, your own politics, morals, values, are being reflected in what you choose to engage with. So while it’s not you know, that we’re always necessarily consciously thinking about this, it is that this is naturally what happens with any hobby. It’s just a matter of if you’re sort of self aware enough to notice that that is what’s happening with basically everything that you engage in.

Nicole Sweeney 24:41
Actions have consequences and like, yes, it’s up to you that (to like reiterate, a point that Mari made earlier and also that she made in her video that everybody should go watch). But like your actions have consequences, and it’s up to you whether or not you want to give a shit about those consequences. But like. Like, yes, all of the choices that you were making in terms of your hobbies and the things that you were doing for fun, those things, they have an impact and like yes, the the impact is going to vary. Like there’s, there’s a scale here. If you are talking to, you know, 20 Twitter followers versus a, you know, a million subscribers or whatever, like, like there’s, there’s a scale to this, yes. But like all of the choices that you are making will still have some sort of like consequences. There will be some sort of follow up from that. And if people are like critiquing your choices, like, like that is that is one of, one of the consequences, right? So like, either you can engage with that and care and like make different choices or you can choose not to care. But like if you choose not to care, then you also don’t get to care that people are telling you that your like actions are bad, right? Like.

Deboki 25:56
And I think that, like especially, like this idea of it coming up in different hobby spaces like the, the thing is like all of these places become communities. And like, what people choose to talk about on an individual level ends up creating, like community wide effects in terms of who feels included, who feels excluded, who feels hurt in any way. Something like beauty guru world where like, I don’t want to, like go too deep into Jeffree Star, but like the veneration of his products for a long time felt very exclusionary to a lot of people because of like, the refusal from his stance to kind of like contend with that in a public way. And when I think of the spaces where like, people would talk about that, that was like a huge sense of just like, okay, this space is for some people and it’s not going to be for other people. The lines you’re drawing are being defined so much by what you’re willing to talk about and what you’re willing to let other people talk about.

Marines Alvarez 26:45
I love this idea of like, you know, when we’re entering into communities, how then like our, our personal politics and decisions become community things. And that really, I think is reflective, or you know ,to bring it back to like a, like a reading community standpoint, what if somebody reads something and says, “This book is completely racist, and, you know, whatever XYZ thing happened, it was very harmful to me,” whatever. And then the the community, not necessarily as a whole, because you know, there are a lot of different people and all that. But if the general feeling of the community is, well, we have to try it for ourselves. Well we’re still going to support it. Or you see tons of people reading it and talking about it online. That then says to you something about the community and sure, those were all individual choices, and maybe these people didn’t necessarily think about how it was reflecting their politics, but that is now communicating something to you. And I think that that sort of idea is also something to keep in mind. Is that it’s not only what you were saying, but what you’re adding or what your voice is adding to what the community is saying as a whole.

Nicole Sweeney 27:57
In a lot of ways a community is just like an aggregate of individual choices, right? You don’t get to, like be a member of a community and also claim like, “I’m just like, you know, like this one person entirely like isolated.” Like, if you were, again, if you are one person entirely isolated, you would do that in the privacy of your own home and not say something on Twitter, or like a video, or do whatever.

Marines Alvarez 28:19
There’s an amount of like this idea of, “Can I just have fun?” Or, “I’m just here to have fun when it comes to like, reading, politics.” It makes it seem like we or, I don’t know who this we is – the people on this panel or like other people in general. But like we are assigning reading political value, when you know, to me, it just exists.

Nicole Sweeney 28:37
Right.

Marines Alvarez 28:41
And the choice is really, whether you choose to engage with it or ignore it. So we’re not saying that you can’t just read for fun, per se. I mean, I kind of yes. I’m saying that that is impossible. The real choice that you’re making is whether or not you’re engaging or ignoring that.

Nicole Sweeney 28:59
Right, like ignoring is still a choice, that’s the thing. You don’t get to opt out. That is a choice. It’s the sort of, it’s like the the whole like no decision is still a decision. It’s that kind of thing. Like you have to choose that either you’re engaging with this or not, but if you’re choosing not, like you are still choosing. You’re choosing not to engage.

Deboki 29:18
I also struggle with this idea that like, this isn’t fun. Because I don’t know, I think maybe my idea of fun is off but I really enjoy nitpicking. Like I love overthinking the shit that I read, that I watch. Like, that is fun for me and yes, like, there are times where it leads me to have internal crises about what I like and what I watched. But like that’s part of it. I don’t know, the other parts are fun so like if you just – like it can’t all just be one thing and I like the nitpicking.

Jocelyn 29:45
For me too. Like, my fun is diminished when I know other people are being hurt by something. So like, there’s also that?

Samantha Lane 29:55
Groundbreaking, right?

Deboki 29:58
That was a much more empathetic response in terms of like, how fun is shaped by books.

Marines Alvarez 30:03
Listen, not to pick on Twilight again. But like, I just find it absolutely astounding when that is the counter argument to like, “This is really harmful,” and somebody says, “Well, I just want to have fun.” And like the, the implication there – like the words in between is “at your expense.” And so I’m like, I like I understand that you find this entertaining, but as a response to somebody saying that there is harm there that is particularly, I don’t know, it just it just boggles my mind every time. Like maybe save that that point for some other time. Like that is not the response you necessarily want to hear when somebody is saying, you know, “This is harmful. This is hurtful. This is taking advantage of a community of people who are already marginalized.” For you to then say, “Well, I want to have fun!” Is just, you know, a choice.

Deboki 30:52
Yeah. And that’s like such a weird thing too, in terms of how like you talk publicly about your reading because like you’re still like, you can still read the book for fun. Someone can say out loud, like, “This is racism in this book,” and you can still go and read it. But to take the extra step then to say publicly like, “But I just want to have fun.” It’s just such a like publicly demeaning way to approach like a person’s real concerns about a work. Where like, kind of tying it against, like, just like that, that sense of responsibility around what you like read publicly, it’s like also how you’re talking about it. And that’s what I find so weird about that, because you could do it. As much as I would rather that you’d be more critical, like, you’re also still allowed to read the book.

Jocelyn 31:30
What seems to factor in for a lot of people is something that I don’t have that much trouble with like, there just seems to be a very big need for nostalgia in our society. And like, I guess maybe that just like, is different for me. Like I don’t care. I can separate my things from things that I loved when I was younger. I can move on with my life. I’m a different person now. And it doesn’t like, say anything about me as, when I liked something as a kid like, JK TERFling you know. Like, but now, knowing who she is, what she does, like, I don’t love the things that she wrote as much. Kill nostalgia. I don’t, I don’t need it.

Marines Alvarez 32:09
I mean, just thinking about nostalgia in the context of politics. And then you frame it in terms of reading, like the – this like, priority on or the need for some – any – sort of like good old days or before you knew better? Again, a choice! A choice. You can have that nostalgia and prioritize it, or you can prioritize you, now. Right now, knowing better. So that also feels political, especially as it pertains to reading. So yes, I totally understand nostalgia. I feel it for things, and especially if there is like, things that like, it informs who you are today or things of that nature. You know, that is part of nostalgia, the way that you can see or track how that was a launching point for something else. But then at some point, you can cut that tie and still be who you are. Like, it’s not going to take any of what you gained from it or what, how you grew from it. It’s not going to take anything away if you cut that tie and just move on.

Nicole Sweeney 33:11
And again like, to keep rehashing that like, same point over and over again. But like, the – there is a level at which, by choosing to have public conversations about your like, your thing, you are, you are not just saying, like, “Here is my nostalgia and here is this thing that I want to sit with for, you know, whatever my nostalgic reasons.” You are also saying, like, “I want to gather in community around this thing.” Maybe those aren’t the words that you’re using, maybe you’re not really even thinking about it in that way. But like literally what is the point of taking that reading to Twitter, if not that you want to commune with people about this thing? And that is inherently political. Like that decision, whether again, whether you want to engage with or think critically about the ways in which that is inherently political or not. That’s on you. But like, it is.

Marines Alvarez 34:02
If you think about then the community that you will ultimately gather around something that is fundamentally bigoted. What sort of community are you then forming? Prioritizing? Being okay with? Participating? And how will that further influence your politics and your beliefs? It’s like a cycle, right? That you’re like feeding into because then you’re putting yourself almost, or you can put yourself almost, into an echo chamber, where, I guess the idea being kind of cycled around is that these things don’t matter. I just think it’s really important to be careful with the sorts of communities that you build and engage with, especially around work that, you know, could be called, quote, unquote, problematic.

Nicole Sweeney 34:50
And then like down the line too, you’re creating a situation where you’re like, “Well, where are all of the marginalized people in this community?” Well, they’re not fucking there because you told them that they weren’t welcome. By the choices that you were making. Like that, that’s on you. Like you, you did that. You created that. You can’t find them because they heard you. And they believed you when you said, “I don’t care about you.”

Samantha Lane 34:50
There’s this false idea kind of that we keep referring to, of, it’s only one or the other. You know, we talk a lot about in the community about these false dichotomies that we just kind of create as humans, you know, it’s a human thing to do. However, I feel like when people go and try to engage in something, you know, for nostalgia that may have its issues, and they’re saying, “I’m just doing this for fun,” they’re trying to absolve themselves of any kind of critique. It’s like, “Well, you can’t critique me because I’m doing it for fun. Don’t shame me.” And it’s like, like, we like we’re saying, like Nicole’s saying, like we’ve all been saying – it’s you’re making, you’re making a choice. And you don’t get to just say, “Well, I don’t need to face the consequences because this is what I do for fun.” Like, there’s a lot of really shitty things people do for fun. And maybe like, take a look at that and what you’re, like Mari is saying, like what you’re choosing to engage with, what communities you’re building around the things, and what kind of people are drawn to those same things as you. Like, look around at who you are engaging with.

Jocelyn 36:05
Yeah. And I think it also plays into bigger systems as well when people are prioritizing comfort and nostalgia. And like a really big example, book example, that comes to mind is the most recent Hugo’s. Where in the same year they got rid of the Campbell Award, because they noted last year that he was super racist and Jeannette Ng had a whole speech on it, and her speech won this year. But also, they gave a retro Hugo to Campbell and like, how, how did you do that?

Marines Alvarez 36:37
I think the only thing that we haven’t necessarily touched on which is something that I wanted to bring up here, are the concepts of sort of objectivity and bias and neutrality, and how they play into the reading community and how that kind of ties into what we’re talking about here, about our politics, but also like responsibility about the things that we read and the things that we make.

Deboki 37:00
I feel like I think about this too much because it like intersects with like science, it intersects with media, it intersects with, it intersects with everything. And I think of like all of the different insidious ways that it like creeps in. Like especially with things like science, that like people really like wanna like, fetishize that idea of objectivity without like, being like, Actually, like, you know, people are doing the science, so like, it’s not a thing that just exists independent of us. No analysis is done just like without human bias and perspective and forming it. But when I think about it in terms of readers, I think a lot about it in terms of how like, we process other people’s feelings. And this really false notion that like, your feelings are more objective because they’re informed less by your own “personal politics.” (And I’m air quoting personal politics, or trying to.) But like, that anyone who is informed by their own personal experience, like whether it’s a personal -especially like experiences of racism, the idea that if that’s informing their response to a book that that’s less objective and especially if they respond to a book with anger like that, that makes it even more unobjective than your like simple like, I just want to have fun kind of response. And maybe I’m like, really separating these responses into two extremes. But like that somehow just wanting to have fun is more neutral or objective like that is just such a false notion and so aggravating.

Marines Alvarez 38:27
I think too that as readers or any sort of reviewers, I think – and in the reading community, there is a high value placed on ideas of like objectivity and being unbiased. And I think that as a consequence, what that makes people do is not contend with these ideas of how we are bringing in personal politics and biases into our reading and into what we’re doing. Because if people are telling you, “The way to make the best content is to be totally objective. Cut yourself off from you know, your personhood, I don’t know, the world, and just like review this objectively,” then you’re not asking yourself questions about these sorts of connections that we’re talking about on this podcast panel. So I think that you almost have to, you know, really ask these questions about “What is my – what are my biases? How are my beliefs, how are – what is the baggage that I’m bringing to this, this content and this book? Like, how is that in play here?”

Nicole Sweeney 39:25
Before I even begin to answer this question, I’m going to lead with like the bias and baggage of mine, which is that I am suspicious of whether or not objectivity exists. So just like my baseline, is that I think that objectivity is like kind of inherently bullshit in like, much in a much broader sense than just this conversation. Mostly because I think that most metrics for objectivity, most of the ways that we think about objectivity across like, you know, reading, sure, but like the sciences, like whatever like. In, in many aspects of society, mostly what we mean by that is that there is a set of assumptions that we are going to take for granted. And we’re going to use a certain set of assumptions about the way the world is or the way the world works. And those are going to be treated as our baseline. I take issue with that, right? Like I take issue with the fact that like, whatever we are, whatever we are terming objectivity usually is privileging something about the status quo in some kind of way, and treating the status quo as given and as neutral when we are – like, we live in society and we are constantly creating and recreating and like restructuring that society. And so I just, like in general, I think that the idea of being objective in your, like in your reading reviews, feels particularly absurd to me as a concept. Like a book is written by a human being. It is being internalized and processed by you, another human being. Like you – like there’s just there’s just so many layers of like, human input and like feeling and like things about being a person. Like neither the writer nor you, the reader, are robots. So –

Deboki 41:10
And even a robot –

Nicole Sweeney 41:11
And even a robot! Yes, correct. The AI for that book-writing robot was coded by a human being, right? So like I just, yeah. In conclusion, objectivity is a lie. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Marines Alvarez 41:31
To your point about like the status quo: not only was this written by a human and being read by a human, there is an entire industry behind getting to say who writes, who gets published, how much money they get, if they can live off of their art. Not only if they get published, but how many eyeballs are on the like, the PR and the marketing for each and every book. You know, you can even basically manipulate your way on to New York Times Bestsellers, so. And so this idea that of like objectivity or, or neutrality plays into also this idea that the best works float to the top. That there’s nothing else at play here other than if you do a real good job, you’ll, you’ll get your publishing deal and you’ll make money or whatnot, when we know that is false. And so any sort of not engaging with these ideas of bias, not only our own personal bias, but the bias that the book was written with, and the bias that informs whether or not we ever get to read the book, like these are all parts of reading.

Deboki 42:32
I think like another part of it too is who, whose reviews you choose to engage with. Like, I feel like it’s so disingenuous to act like reviewers can be objective and like a, in a community that is so driven by how reviewers present themselves. Whether it’s YouTube, Twitter, Instagram. Whether you’re talking about the aesthetics or whether you’re talking about just like simple technical things, like there’s so many choices that like go into how you’re going to present your review that to me, like I feel such a disconnect between that idea that you’re putting in these choices into how you present yourself, and that you are then going to assume that like other people are not putting those choices into how they write their work.

Marines Alvarez 43:06
I keep thinking about and laughing at myself, because I keep thinking about Geralt from the Witcher series.

Nicole Sweeney 43:14
Go on.

Deboki 43:16
Don’t we all?

Samantha Lane 43:16
Yes.

Marines Alvarez 43:18
But just this idea that he has, or like the, entire like Witcher institution is all about, like neutrality. We talked about that show on our podcast. We talked a lot about how like, you know, because he is powerful, any sort of neutrality is siding with that power and tie it back to reading (I swear there’s a point), I feel like that the like, bigger you are in the community and the more your platform grows, the more you try to side with this idea of neutrality, the more that is inherently siding with power, and the status quo and things of that nature. And so when people are saying like, “I just want to stay out of politics. I don’t want to comment on things that are happening” either in the community or in larger senses in the world, like, again, you can and that’s a choice. But you think you’re choosing neutrality when, I think in essence, you are really choosing whatever is in power and whatever is the status quo.

Jocelyn 44:12
Yes.

Nicole Sweeney 44:12
Yes, yes.

Deboki 44:14
And I think a part of it too, like we’re talking a lot about like participate – like how we’re like, participating in the community and like how that’s like, like there is a community message. I think some of it too, is like people’s assumption that when we’re talking about politics, that it’s about checking off boxes or about like having people think of you as woke and not as about a set of actions that you are taking on a regular consistent basis. Like, I don’t think I am like, as woke as I want to be right now, right? Like that is the thing that I feel like I’m always having to work on and like that is acknowledging mistakes, acknowledging things that I need to learn more about. Public presentation is only one facet of that.

Marines Alvarez 44:50
Yeah. And I I don’t want people to – I don’t know, like, I guess in talking about this, we’ve kind of set ourselves up. But I am aware of all these different things and I feel like I’m always learning more about how these things inform each other – my politics and my actions and my reading and my hobbies and whatnot. It doesn’t mean that I’m particularly good at this or any of this, or that I’m perfect at it, I would say. It means that I’m learning and that, and by being aware, it means that I can learn because I’m asking myself questions. And I want it to continue to learn and grow. But you know, yeah, I get it wrong and I mess up. Not only like mess up, but we’re constantly kind of changing the ways that we approach this and maybe books that I bought and talked about, you know, several years ago, are not books that I would buy and talk about today, and will not be books that in the future, you know, that I would engage with either. So this is like a constant learning and changing process, in which like, being aware is step one. But there’s a lot more like action and growth that goes along with it.

Nicole Sweeney 45:57
And also like again, it goes back to the ways in which like it is – you are always making a choice. And like that trying to choose neutrality, trying to choose the status quo, like that is still a choice. That’s a choice that you are making whether you want to pretend it isn’t a choice or not, like fine. But there is no point at which you get to like disengage. You are still a member of a society, and like you can either choose to uphold things as the way that they are, or you can like I don’t know, go on like the journey of being a person. Like everything that you’ve just described is like, that’s like being a human being, right? Like you are constantly learning new things. Like you’re taking in inputs. And like I – to kind of like circle this back around to the beginning – that is political because like everything is political. Because the personal is political. Because like, because of all of that and it’s just like really, it’s a question of like how much you want to show up for, for that. Like and be present, and be part of that and like be an active participant in the ways in which your choices are driving your like, politics and your participation in the book community, and in the world at large. You are participating. And like, it’s it’s really up to you how much you want to think critically about that participation, and be thoughtful about that participation.

Jocelyn 47:12
Yeah. And like Nicole, I definitely take issue with just the idea of objectivity. Like who is it that created the idea of objectivity anyway? You know, like, who set this up?

Marines Alvarez 47:22
A white man?

Samantha Lane 47:23
Right!

Jocelyn 47:23
Definitely a white man. Yeah, so like the idea that people want to just like hold on to objectivity and just the way that it – I think someone else mentioned too like, it does seem to be the opposite of being emotional, and being self aware. Like, it’s also – it feels to me very much in the same vein as like people who play devil’s advocate. Like there is a shielding behind the critique, because you are able to remove, quote, unquote, remove yourself from the situation. But the only people who can do that are people who are in an extreme place of privilege, at least in whatever space it is that they’re talking about. They get to be objective because they don’t actually get affected by the thing at hand, right? So like –

Nicole Sweeney 48:14
Yeah.

Jocelyn 48:14
I just – it really, it really annoys me when people try and like play like, “Well objectively…” Like, no sir. Sit down. No one asked for this. No one asked for you to try and get people to be emotional to prove your point. Like this is not the way that we move forward. Because you keep us back by saying that like this is good, because it’s good.

Nicole Sweeney 48:36
Also, like congrats on how, the fact that like your feelings aren’t involved here, but like maybe like, again, like maybe that’s something you need to like, think about, right? Like if lots of other people are getting emotional about this conversation, then maybe it’s because it like matters more to them because it affects them more, like. Yes, the way in which like emotions and feelings and like – are denigrated as a less valid way of like, knowing something – it is exasperating. And I hate it. My feelings on that are fuck it.

Marines Alvarez 49:12
Kind of as a natural byproduct of this conversation, we’ve talked about how there – like almost the other side of this argument, or the way that people kind of shield themselves from engaging with these ideas. So, you know, “I’m just reading for fun” or “objectivity.” But the other thing that I hear a lot is kind of this idea that, you know, “there are more important things,” or even some of the things that are reflected in our reading as politics kind of, you know, they have, I don’t know, bigger counterparts out in society, you know, what I mean, versus in our small communities in fiction or whatnot. But just to kind of wrap up or echo Nicole’s point about this being like the journey of personhood, I have to understand my impact as a person and how far out that goes. So no, this is not the biggest deal in the world, but it is also directly tied to me and my impact and how my decisions affect me, my politics, my everyday life. And then, you know, add layers on layers for when you start engaging with an audience. So, you know, why is it important? I mean, it’s a question you have to answer for yourself, but at the same time, you know, just because bigger things are happening, or these conversations happen in bigger spaces, like that does not negate that we, we can all engage in content with this on personal scales.

Jocelyn 50:31
And also then you minimize that for other people too. When it is a big deal for someone and you’re saying, “Oh, like this isn’t like a big deal though.” It’s completely invalidating their own experience with this thing because you’re saying that your “objective feeling” of this not being a big deal is superior to theirs.

Deboki 50:52
I sometimes see it too is like a matter of trust. Like if someone’s going to dismiss like a small thing, am I going to trust them with the big thing?

All 50:58
Mmmm.

Marines Alvarez 51:00
Sorry, we were all just like mmhmm.

Deboki 51:03
Yes! Bask in my genius!

Marines Alvarez 51:07
And on that note that brings us to the close of this conversation. Thank you to our guests, Nicole, Deboki, and Jocelyn for being here. And thanks once again to our sponsor, Little Bee Books. If you’d like to jump in on this conversation, answer some of the questions that we posed here today, and ask our panelists some follow up questions, join us on Thursday, September 10, at 8pm Eastern Time for a Twitter chat on the politics of reading. So follow along with that and keep informed on all of the things that are happening this month with BookNet Fest Online. Follow us on Twitter @booknetfest. You can find me @mynameismarines.

Samantha Lane 51:42
You can find me @thoughtsontomes.

Nicole Sweeney 51:44
You can find me @sweeneysays.

Deboki 51:46
I’m @okidoki_boki.

Jocelyn 51:48
And I am @joceraptor.

Marines Alvarez 51:50
This has been a BookNet Fest production edited by me, transcribed by Jocelyn, and the music is by Stefan Chin.

Well how do I sign off? Oh, bye!

All 52:06
[Laughter] Bye.